跟贾陆英老师学《论语》为政篇第1章 2013年12月13日

     今日下午3：30贾陆英老师《论语》问答录在老秘网QQ群“重温经典读书会”准时开讲。本期学习讨论《论语》为政篇第1章，网友们的参与热情高涨。老猫出差刚回，现整理如下：

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! B2 ?$ R8 |/ {2 I* [mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: 1 o5 h4 S0 i& n. aTahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">贾陆英：2 s+ _: l: `3 a& W6 ]* g' l 0pt">

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0 E3 f, L4 b9 omso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: . X: F6 G& t: p/ n% bTahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">今天下午，我们学习讨论《论语》为政篇第% }' F1 h& R% W8 C% V7 W4 T mso-font-kerning:0pt">15 S6 G+ l; G1 U. P/ Mfont-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">章：4 R. u$ D% [. y/ k. s ]7 | mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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) ^* h$ g# r% g5 `2•1# p7 z# F0 e" Q6 n. f Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; mso-font-kerning:0pt">子曰：& D) u7 p3 r3 Rmso-font-kerning:0pt">"+ ^! a& B( t! N mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; S: b/ {! I- i/ P) L" ?; [: Wmso-font-kerning:0pt">为政以德，譬如北辰，居其所而众星共之。' i! E& V0 F8 F6 I5 k2 Xcolor:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">"

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% }' H: J) B8 n mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">北辰：指北极星。所：处所、位置。共：同拱，环绕。比喻众多的人簇拥着一个被他们尊敬的人，或许多东西围绕着一个中心。$ o9 F4 V' t" R T mso-font-kerning:0pt">
! V5 k. b: M% }0 YTahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; 3 x$ f) s. x1 V) W( P0 g# amso-font-kerning:0pt">孔子说：0 [: n6 b+ U% C8 v 10.5pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">“/ f& f$ Z# O1 a# Rmso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; mso-font-kerning:0pt">靠高尚的品德来施政，这样的为政者好比是北极星，居于自己的位置上，众多的星星都环绕着它。# z: i' y6 f6 E' x7 N7 O mso-font-kerning:0pt">”
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8 _1 N* G+ X ^1 a8 e2 X mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; mso-font-kerning:0pt">问：这句话表达了孔子的什么主张？7 v# S f$ Z6 n+ P, H2 Q; Z' m color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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/ P. y. U6 s1 E3 _4 r6 _+ m mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: 1 l5 E) P* P1 ^. qTahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">答：孔子以北辰居其中而众星环绕作比喻，深刻揭示了具有高尚品德对于为政者的重要性，具体、形象、生动地表达了孔子的德治思想。当时，在如何治理国家的问题上，主要有两种主张：其一是依靠政令刑法，强制百姓服从；其二是通过道德教化，引导百姓走上正道。孔子主张后者，强调为政者首先要以自己高尚的品德为榜样，尔后才能教化、影响、引导民众。# y; N" L5 u4 d7 _ mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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j2 I) B8 \! z h- KTahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">Leslie z+ R; P4 s: O/ k" m% v 10.5pt;font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; 9 v7 h( |% J. w: ] wmso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">：, J! j% c; W# W9 U- b mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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( g; g: _) u) h% `8 f" g0 W+ t4 h7 E% hmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: ; m7 X& O' z: g5 e. i% qTahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">仁政具体指的是什么？道德层面的东西我觉得都太虚了，没有一个标准。同志们认为呢: |8 \+ X1 v9 G0 `& l# F R mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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( a% V. H: e. k$ V 10.5pt;font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">以政令刑法，民治而心不服，以礼仪道德，民治而心服( \' W/ e' P0 R5 x; j( \ mso-font-kerning:0pt">——; t6 {& C& |! [, {. G" [font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; " l% X% _2 @4 R& z6 Z- ?mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">是的，这就是孔子说的& A. D* s; G2 A2 u8 I$ f( L mso-font-kerning:0pt">"1 O/ h6 Y# F- o; K- k: jfont-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">道之以政，齐之以刑，民免而无耻；道之以德，齐之以礼，有耻且格。7 P1 f9 z; { d& R5 J, ~mso-font-kerning:0pt">"

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* M+ ~/ w# @5 H mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">无心随风：! e# |2 I- s. Q z& p8 x, L 0pt">

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, N; Q6 |8 S# z7 P, L4 z9 X, c/ \ 10.5pt;font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; / T" z6 v2 z6 p4 |! S$ vmso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">德是孔子所说的君子之道吗？孔子的人性不分善恶，他信奉有教无类。我认为是孔子信奉的是德治礼治，而不是德治法治，儒法结合是后人的创新+ v% G0 w, ?, [$ s mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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; |" ]0 G0 U5 S6 f* A" M+ }3 Hmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: - d! ~4 i5 e* R( Q5 Y) r7 [2 jTahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">好風如水：: g" \ F i9 K7 F 0pt">

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9 h: Z1 m$ i4 e! W1 A1 p, ~mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">儒家法家绝对是治国两大法宝，是不是有说内法外王。希望依靠道德来治理国家。道德高尚至极只能是圣人，而不是君王。君王要有仁爱之心，但不能妄想通过道德来治理国家吧。干部要清明、清廉、清白7 U8 Q) r! O( U& v! O5 q9 ymso-font-kerning:0pt">

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2 ?4 D3 G- ?9 q. z7 s5 Wmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: * L( m4 J Q6 }) HTahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">破风弃俗：- W5 D8 Z S- B8 _) F. P0 X9 ]0pt">

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; \3 v$ m! G5 B5 ~4 }4 J6 mTahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt"> 

; f) F" s7 d) s: g) I mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">贾老师，学生认为：政令刑罚、道德教化二者不可偏其一，无道德教化，民暴而戾，无政令刑罚，民散而慢。总而言之，应用儒家思想来做人，用发家思想来做事，这也符合我们的辩证法思想。儒法相结合不是从以往执政者所言的外儒内法。应该是在去除封建统治者为维护统治所宣扬的糟粕基础上，留下儒家所宣扬的大仁、大爱的思想，在结合现代化的法制、民主的精神，才是真正的儒法结合。一味从古，不如不学% n! Q6 w7 q* n4 I( U% |0 s" l, R mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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d7 `* `8 \) ~mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: . B$ d5 t: h3 y# E3 D& VTahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">贾陆英：$ R: f( X1 K3 b- ~" x 0pt">

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3 W7 C# |! f2 x4 \$ X+ d mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">现在不是都在强调以民为本，为人民服务么7 j. W B/ s+ u S1 Mmso-font-kerning:0pt">——. n# v, p8 d( C1 s$ S+ Yfont-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; : q- {# O% m) \( O3 i* Cmso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">这一思想的文化渊源，就是德治、仁政思想。德是孔子所说的君子之道吗？, T$ z6 J+ J8 Qmso-font-kerning:0pt">——& T' {5 G* K3 x3 O& ~font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">是的。为政者之德，还要突出以身作则，正人先正己，为下属作出表率。3 \( N5 m5 H9 Y0pt"> 5 O6 D' k/ _0 cTahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; 0 N$ ~# r: T" S; r! F/ Y# Zmso-font-kerning:0pt">“贾老师，学生认为：政令刑罚、道德教化二者不可偏其一，无道德教化，民暴而戾，无政令刑罚，民散而慢。总而言之，应用儒家思想来做人，用发家思想来做事，这也符合我们的辩证法思想”( X$ q! V1 x; L$ ^4 w5 r: n5 _1 T, vmso-font-kerning:0pt">——7 P W0 N$ d, ^2 Wfont-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">基本赞同。孔子所说6 z- U7 I% @9 S* Emso-font-kerning:0pt">"# ?' a- P. {& E8 O% @1 @/ bfont-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">道之以政，齐之以刑，民免而无耻；道之以德，齐之以礼，有耻且格。5 Y- Q" {9 e' h' t mso-font-kerning:0pt">"; S! o& k o! }% G4 F font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">本身就包含着德治与法治相结合的观点。( ^; C6 h- n2 a1 \5 ^" w1 Fmso-font-kerning:0pt">

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) u' R5 G: _& omso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">以礼仪道德，民治而心服7 V6 X. R/ H M% b+ q5 A5 k- Y1 [ 0pt">    , H5 t6 U6 A: K; [1 ~ font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; / J% t. z u* d$ F! {mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">人性本善# Q: a+ t1 Y# B5 ?mso-font-kerning:0pt">     ! s6 ?* J# F+ D% Vmso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; mso-font-kerning:0pt">以政令刑法，民治而心不服6 S5 f9 g/ w2 r5 h10.5pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt"> * i- k1 @6 @: a- e' h& c# B8 Xmso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; 8 C; I Q$ f! ?mso-font-kerning:0pt">人性本恶。人性本善，礼仪道德，天下大和。人性本恶，礼仪道德，与虎谋皮啊7 z# }0 S( C, [ mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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2 r. c$ M1 G4 f mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">我认为国治才能民安，所以教化没人人外儒是必要的，每个人也都有义务做到外儒！民安后如何能够实现久安呢？这就需要内法的作用啦！/ V/ W& }6 z( ^- ymso-font-kerning:0pt">

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. Y, b4 D! i5 t! |# w3 h$ v0 Zmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: 2 h h3 j) y, b3 `: A% n: eTahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">我觉得现在很多人被大众观念里的道德观绑架了，就出现了所谓的装和假8 l1 D) h& U& O4 I, N2 ?+ c mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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G' s q# I8 Y/ W0 j" n. k mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: % L, d q5 p2 QTahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">贾陆英：/ b( h+ x6 t0 E8 P: y" ?5 m0pt">

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0 Z& a9 l7 C! q) B5 `" W. D) ]mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: ; ]% o {+ F* w B K; L. \# i: DTahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">儒学是以伦理道德思想为特质的观念体系，这是它区别于世界上其他文明的显著特征之一。儒学是以礼乐文明为中心的文化系统，这是它区别于世界上其他文明的又一显著特征。现在确有一些人认为，道德修养方面的问题是: k* j* a+ ?5 o. T' r7 s/ n mso-font-kerning:0pt">“$ R' X# h! i2 y$ x8 ?font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">细节问题6 n1 E: n- y* X0 e; x P mso-font-kerning:0pt">”& H3 [. b q* `+ _ font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">，没有必要小题大做。这种认识是十分错误和有害的。# C" h3 P" E+ k) P0 p" d) V$ \1 {+ C2 Q$ s mso-font-kerning:0pt">“7 f u& |, s9 k( J3 I. ^. G font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">千里之堤，溃于蚁穴3 f+ z& }: B0 l& z. s! N7 ^mso-font-kerning:0pt">”/ w/ L" A% v5 G+ w1 U+ C font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">，少数人走上违法犯罪道路，往往是从道德品质上出问题开始的。没有职业操守，就不可能做到爱岗敬业。我们培养敬业精神，一定要紧紧抓住加强道德修养这个重点。

好多领导都喜欢说几句

贾老师，不愧是儒学精英。

感谢了，学习了哈！:D

听君一席话，胜读十年书啊

看君一篇文，胜读十年书！

看了老师们的点评和解说，胜读十年书！

感谢，为什么有乱码啊？

学习了，受到了很多启发